Hauntii: Between a Rock and an Eternal Place

Have you ever been 'ghosted'? You know, that cute girl you've been chatting and trying to woo for months until she suddenly stopped responding as soon as you mentioned your affection for World of Warcraft. Or the time your Magic The Gathering dealer (a shady guy wearing an oversized trenchcoat stuffed with holographic, illegally-obtained Black Lotuses and Mox Emeralds, obviously) went AWOL forever as soon as you mentioned you're "short on cash, lol." No? Well...

With that in mind, Hauntii, this hand-drawn Ghibli-esque title set in the DMV of an afterlife – the nexus for souls trying to grapple with, well, life after life – made me think of this modern way of ditching people. Mostly because the core mechanic of this twin-stick shooter invites players not to blast other denizens of Eternity into stardust – we have DOOM for that – but to take control of them. It's not the complete opposite of ghosting, but it's close enough.

During February's Steam Next Fest, I spent a good 45 minutes following the wiggly head-tail of Hauntii's Grim Reaper-looking protagonist and possessing everything in my path, from colossal Olmec heads to giant peashooter creatures to adorable ladybugs that let you glide from tree to tree with the tune of a quite-addicting jingle playing in the background.

In that short time, I was convinced that Leo Dasso, the lead developer of the game, had something promising on his hands: a title that had more to offer underneath its hand-drawn aesthetic. Not because Kotaku told me so. I'm simply a sucker for games that blend shooting and possession mechanics (Destroy All Humans 2, Stubs the Zombie, and (if anyone remembers it) Second Sight all come to mind) in that not-quite-gimmicky, hits-all-the-right spots kind of way. Add some wacky banter and the contents of my wallet ($20 in loose change, Denny's membership card (expired), and a single arcade coin from the Museum of the Moving Image with Space Invader on it) are now yours.

What I'm trying to say is that games like Hauntii can only come from someone who loves this lately heart-breaking medium despite not getting the love back. Someone who names personal turbulences (like moving all across the world and having to adjust to a completely different way of living) alongside a love for Final Fantasy and Super Mario Odyssey as main points of inspiration. Heck, I bet my collection of Nintendo Power magazines and a bootleg cartridge of Banjo-Kazooie that Dasso has seen Indie Game: The Movie and could easily apply half of the quotes from the doc to his own personal experience.

Hauntii, a "goth cousin to Chicory," as The Gamer's Stacey Henley aptly put it, is a game made by a gamer, a game with soul (pun intended), if you will. And while there's Paper Trail, Duck Detective: The Secret Salami, not to mention Hellblade 2 duking it out for my limited time and attention – with me still trying to figure out how to take the damn hat off in the game (apparently, the afterlife is big on hats but you won't find that mentioned in The Bible) – I don't see Hauntii being the one getting ghosted.

SUPERJUMP

What do you think is the worst thing when you are a ghost (when you’re in an afterlife)?

Leo Dasso (Creative Director, Moonloop Games)

I think it would be kind of scary like there are these corrupted ghosts who sort of look like huge monsters. In that sense, it would be pretty scary.

The worst thing... I think maybe the difficult part is that ghosts have to be confronted with everything they lost from their previous life. That's kind of a bummer.

SUPERJUMP

BIG bummer. Anyway, how did you end up becoming a game developer?

Leo Dasso

I always liked games. I learned how to program really early, in middle school. I guess I just was always interested in programming and drawing.

The thing that really got me started on this [path] was – I don't know if you remember – Newgrounds, this ‘00s flash conglomerate site. I had published a few things on Newgrounds, games and animations. I wasn't one of the huge creators on Newgrounds. But it was enough of attention that – now [when] something gets 10,000 views, it's nothing. Everything gets 10,000 views – back then, in 2003, it felt insane. Like this huge rush. Like, ‘Oh my God, that's so many people!’ [laughs]

I guess I just really [enjoyed] that feeling of ‘Oh my God, I can publish things and then many people will play them.’ It was like, ‘I'll just keep doing this.’

SUPERJUMP

So after Newgrounds, you just got hooked and continued interacting with the game development?

Leo Dasso

Yeah. I mean, it wasn't always such an easy path. I've had some other jobs here and there. The first ever game I published (for money), it took two years to make it. I had no money. I was working a part-time job. And I was just like, ‘Oh, maybe I should have gotten a real job. My friends are making 60k a year and I'm just here making sandwiches.’ [laughs]

It got easier after that though. You get better at financing game projects. So at this point, I’m more comfortable.

SUPERJUMP

What titles would you say inspired you to start making games?

Leo Dasso

I really like Final Fantasy XI, XII, and IX. Final Fantasy X is one of my favourite games ever. Mario Sunshine, Mario Odyssey, and older Mario games, too. A bit of everything.

SUPERJUMP

Since are talking influences on Hauntii, I know for a fact that it was partially inspired by Mario Odyssey. Are there any influences, not specifically games, that inspired Hauntii?

Leo Dasso

Hollow Knight was kind of a big inspiration. I just really like how tight their style was. There's also a Japanese ambient album that's just wind sounds and bell chimes and it's really relaxing. I remember listening to it a lot around the time I was doing early concept ideas for Hauntii. I was like, ‘Yeah, I like this relaxing feel, it should be in the game.’ [laughs]

I guess Ico was an influence as well. I don't think I quite nailed this feeling that Ico does – it feels super isolated and almost like time is standing still. There are basically three characters and most of the time it's just the two of you. I really liked that.

There's an artist on Instagram – dric. He does these really cool, simple drawings. I like that style. I think that was also an influence.

SUPERJUMP

As I understand, your initial Kickstarter for Hauntii failed, which led you to reaching out to the Game If You Are company. Can you explain how they helped you find the audience or the unique selling point for Hauntii?

Leo Dasso

So I had done two Kickstarters for games before and they were both successful. But it was quite a long time ago. I was thinking, ‘I'm obviously doing something wrong here: the game is sufficient and the trailer's sufficient... But something’s not right.’

I basically reached out to [Game If You Are] and I was like, ‘Can you guys look at this and tell me what I'm doing wrong?’ They were immediately like, ‘Oh, yeah... Kickstarter has changed a lot, you know. Now you have to build up a lot to the campaign.’

It was good to get somebody else's perspective on it because it had just been me and Michael at that point for at least a year. And it's weird that I would not be able to explain the selling points of my own game, but that was the case. I was like, ‘I don't know why people would like this... but I like it!’ [laughs]

SUPERJUMP

So why do you think the crowdfunding for Hauntii failed where Diluvion succeeded?

Leo Dasso

Diluvion was funded in 2014 or 2015, a long time from now. I think at that time there were just fewer indie game projects on Kickstarter. I can't know for sure what happens behind the scenes, but my guess is that [back then] they weren’t algorithmically listed on the Explore page. It was basically if you posted something with an appealing trailer, it would get attention. Diluvion got featured by Kickstarter and it kind of snowballed from there.

With Hauntii, when we posted it on Kickstarter, we just posted it – there was no buildup; we didn't have people follow the page. We were dumping it all out. That used to work but doesn't anymore. You have to do a campaign and build up to things and you have to get a following because modern Kickstarter uses more or less algorithmically chosen projects.

For example, when we posted [Hauntii], if you were to go to the Explore Games page, we'd be on page three. Nobody goes to page three! [laughs] And nobody did, really. Kickstarter’s organic traffic was nothing.

SUPERJUMP

Well, it's cool to see that eventually Hauntii prospered and made it to the Xbox Game Pass – that's big.

Leo Dasso

Thank you!

SUPERJUMP

What does being added to the Game Pass mean to you?

Leo Dasso

I think it could be really cool. I think with Game Pass you also get some support with getting the word out about your game. It certainly means that there's a wider audience for Hauntii so that part is really cool.

Honestly, when I'm in development mode I don't really think about it that much. I'm kind of obsessive about the game itself – playing it and thinking about how it can be better.

SUPERJUMP

How long does it usually take to make a single area in Hauntii, from drawing to cleaning up, digitizing, and putting it into Unity?

Leo Dasso

It's a fairly long process. We start with the concept art for the area. So concept art would take maybe 10-12 hours to create. From there, we’re doing the prototypes. We have this character that's like a jumping mushroom. As a prototype, it's just a capsule – a jumping capsule. Prototyping could be anywhere from one day to three or four days.

Creating the assets for an area is maybe a week. Populating a scene, however, is pretty time-consuming. Creating the scene itself could take anywhere from three to five days. And there are over 50 scenes in the game, so... [laughs]

SUPERJUMP

I like to ask this question to game developers whose games are really atmospheric and artsy. There is this age-old debate on style versus substance. When it comes to Hauntii, what amount of style is substance?

Leo Dasso

At the end of the day, games are entertainment. So the first priority for a game is to be entertaining for the player. If there is a conflict between the art style and the gameplay, I will always put the gameplay first. The art style and presentation should never fight with gameplay – they should always enhance the gameplay.

A lot of people who played Hauntii commented that the gameplay is more in-depth than they thought. And, I mean, it's not a particularly deep game. It's pretty easy to pick up. There's no crazy levelling system; nothing like Factorio where there are a million systems to play with.

Then again, we did put a huge amount of thought and effort into the gameplay. The style was designed to be clear on screen. It was meant to be a clear visual style, also to be [a style] that fit our team size – you need a style that allows you to create assets quickly.

There are more artsy indie games that just don't have gameplay. It's just like, not necessarily walking simulators, but they’re just not rich gameplay-wise. Style can carry a game to a certain point, but I don't think it should. If you have a solid gameplay foundation, then style can do a huge amount of work to enhance that. But it won't carry the game itself.

SUPERJUMP

Love that answer. Did you find it difficult to marry twin-stick shooting and the haunting game mechanic?

Leo Dasso

Yes, it was difficult. There were a lot of experiments. I always knew I wanted to do a twin stick shooter for Hauntii. I spent a lot of time in doubt because with twin-stick shooters part of the fun is getting all these upgrades to your gun and levelling up. When it's mixed with the haunting, it sort of has this entirely different dynamic where you're using the twin-stick control mechanism to control things that are totally not shooting-related.

We'd been through a number of prototypes actually. Because now the twin stick and haunting are the same things – if you want to haunt something, you just shoot it.

Before that, the prototype just didn't connect. It was like a different button to haunt something compared to shooting. It felt like a ghost with a gun. [laughs] I know there's a game called Wizard With a Gun – they pull it off and have good humour with it.

But in our case, before we connected those two, it felt like it was just strapped on for some reason. I would say that was the biggest design challenge of this project.

SUPERJUMP

What's the starting point of creating your own unique vision of the afterlife? With Hades and similar games that are based off Greek mythology, it’s easier to build off a twist of that world when you have a foundation. But with Hauntii, it feels like the afterlife is your own unique vision.

Leo Dasso

The afterlife in this game is minimalistic. We show as little as we can while still telling the story. When you're playing, most of the screen is black and you have these white pathways where you can’t go. I guess it's a minimalist way to create the level. But at the same time, I would rather let the players just imagine what could be beyond there – to have their own version of it.

SUPERJUMP

I have to say, I really like the constellation-making mechanic before you get an upgrade. How did you come up with it?

Leo Dasso

Honestly, I don't remember. That idea is really old and I don't remember where it came from. I know that the stars came first, because you're collecting the stars to build the constellation. I think it probably randomly popped up in a sketch one day and I just was like, ‘Oh, that looks cool!’ Then it just got in the game.

SUPERJUMP

I know that you are making Hauntii as accessible to gamers who are not particularly good at arcade shooters - you want it to be played by as many people as possible. Was this the original vision right from the start? Or did you tamp down difficulty because Game If You Are folks advised you to?

Leo Dasso

The early prototypes were more intense. But they also had a totally different vibe. Basically, it was the minimalism theme of the game that made me reduce the difficulty a lot. There's this feeling of calm, just a bit scary, and this kind of ethereal vibe to Hauntii. And it didn't match well with extreme difficulty. When we were looking at the game and the music and everything together, we were like, ‘We can slowly ease people into this because it's naturally relaxing.’

From very early on, I would find playtesters who are [awful] at gaming. People who'd only play Candy Crush are really good testers. If you can get somebody like that to get through the tutorial and understand the game – now that’s a BIG challenge.

If you're talking with someone who has some experience playing games and more or less understands the genres, you can just hand them a controller and they'll know what to do. But if you want to include people who really don't usually touch games or at least play super casually, then you need to explain every little aspect of the genre and do it in a way that's not boring. If in the first five minutes of the game, you don't pop up a tutorial that's like, ‘This is your goal and this is how you do it’, you'll lose them.

SUPERJUMP

Is there an element of Hauntii that you’re particularly proud of in terms of specific technical details, design, or anything else?

Leo Dasso

We had mentioned it before, but the whole constellation sequence – I'm really happy with how that came out. Like the way we got it seems seamless. You kind of just go to this pedestal and float up.

I'm also super happy about the audio for the game. We have a full-time music composer [Michael Kirby] and a full-time sound designer [Ben Seavello], and it really pays off. When you hear the game, it sounds really good. The soundtrack itself is fantastic, but also the sound design is very detailed. The spatialization of it – that might be surprising to people because we haven't really talked about it much. But that's something I'm proud of.

SUPERJUMP

Actually, now that you mention it, the audio design reminded me of Studio Ghibli stuff! Everything you do and touch makes a sound which makes everything feel real.

Leo Dasso

That's awesome. [laughs]

SUPERJUMP

I know that one of the perks of the crowdfunding for Hauntii was that people could have their ghosts put in the game, right?

Leo Dasso

[nods]

SUPERJUMP

Did that pan out or was it canned after the crowdfunding failed?

Leo Dasso

That was a condition only if the campaign succeeded, unfortunately. We did a contest on our Discord, so there will be one Discord member-created character in the game. But yeah, we're not doing the ones from the Kickstart.

SUPERJUMP

Right. And are there any other gameplay elements or features that ended up on the cutting floor for whatever reason?

Leo Dasso

There were a lot of features that got cut. There was even an entire game zone that got cut. In an ideal world, we could just get another six months and it would be all right. Do you know Dragon Ball Z?

SUPERJUMP

Of course! The guy who made it just passed away, right?

Leo Dasso

Yeah. [And the show has this] hyperbolic time chamber. They could go in and it was like one second became one week if you're inside. So yeah, something like that would be really nice. But I haven't found it yet, so we just have to cut things when we run out of time.

It's always quite sad to cut a feature or a character, but then it's like kind of a relief because game development is kind of time-consuming, to begin with.

SUPERJUMP

Is there a particular feature that you cut out of the game you can tell us about?

Leo Dasso

We originally planned to have pets. So as you're going through the world, you can discover different pets. You would have one active at a time, which would give your character a particular benefit. But there were going to be like 50 different pets that you could collect, and as you can imagine, 50 of anything is very time-consuming.

SUPERJUMP

On one of your blogs, you wrote that you experienced severe burnout during the development of Diluvion. How did you approach Hauntii so that nothing like that would ever happen to you or your team?

Leo Dasso

That is a good question. But it's also hard to answer because it's not one big thing. It's more like a number of little things that kind of add up.

There was sort of a change in the design philosophy. Hauntii was designed from the beginning with a team size in mind. You know, the art style, the camera angle, the type of gameplay – all of that was done knowing how many man-hours it might take. If you think one developer times 2000 hours a year, you roughly have 6,000 hours to complete the thing.

We were all pretty young when we were creating the concept for Diluvion. It was an idea that was exciting for all of us. But we really had no idea how long it would take. And we had sort of committed to this idea that it was basically a 15-person job – there were only four of us.

If you commit too much [to it], you basically have to make this really difficult choice of either sacrificing the quality of the game or burning out working on it. And if it's a game you care about, it's very painful to see the quality getting sacrificed as you approach the deadline.

I think that's a problem that you can mitigate in the planning stage: have a realistic idea of how much resources your team has.

SUPERJUMP

That makes a lot of sense. Anyway, final question: seeing all the positive reception of Hauntii, would you be happy to work on a sequel or rather a whole different IP?

Leo Dasso

It depends on sales. If it's sort of a breakout success in terms of sales, I think it would definitely be worth doing a sequel or even just more content.

You know, I have some other ideas that I would like to work on. I think if anyone enjoys Hauntii, they will also enjoy the next game that we're gonna make. Although that one's a secret, I can't tell you anything about it...

SUPERJUMP

Is that a different IP we’re talking about?

Leo Dasso

It may or may not be related. [laughs]

SUPERJUMP

Very cryptic, Leo!

Leo Dasso

I think of it as if they’re in the same universe. But it's not the same story or character.

SUPERJUMP

That's really popular these days, like 'Remedyverse', the same universe shared by Control, Alan Wake, and other studio games.

Leo Dasso

Exactly.

We want to give Leo a big thanks for shedding light on his journey to create Hauntii, which will be released on May 23rd for Steam and all consoles. Stay tuned to SUPERJUMP for more great interviews, reviews, and features!

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